Hi again, Mick,

First of all,thank you for having a real creative brain. I have many, many more ideas that I hope to have time to try out. Comments and questions like yours keep my own creative juices flowing, and that's a big part of the fun that I need to keep in everything that we do here. Even the things we try to make a living at. Our philosphy is that if what you are doing is not fun, then find something that is (at times this approach gets one a bit hungry, but...).

I will give some responses to your comments and questions below.

: That's unfortunate that you can only get max 12 in and mostly less wide. Can
: you ever get more than 4 pcs, like say 6 or 8 if the grain if really
: vertical. How is it made - I presume sawn - and therefore the 8/4 resawn
: possibilities mentioned by george might start making some real sense as
: your accuracy would be almost as good and yet may get more flexibility. I
: bet you'r in the market for an achievably purchased resaw!!

Actually, the size of the veneer is not a problem. Veneer is sliced from the log with a huge blade. An inch thickness of log gives you 30 to 40 sheets, so sheet 1 and sheet 40 will still pretty much match. You could line enough grain match to go around 2 or three yaks.

: The crux of what I was getting at was the belief that the veneers you used
: were tangentially cut like those for plywood. Assuming a 10 -12 in peeler
: log, the circumference or width of the veneer before repetition is half a
: yak and when repeated would give all the bookmatching top, bottom, some
: side, and across bow and acroos stern. Still blindly believing this, maybe
: the idea in the very first post about looking for 4 repeated pcs of ply is
: an actual way. Or talking to plywood factories who might make the run. I
: would surely assume that exotic plywood logs start at larger diameter than
: 10 in., so if 1/16in. for a rotation there should be lots of match out
: there somewhere.

Good quality hardwood face veneers are sliced from the log at whatever angle gives the desired grain pattern. The rotationally peeled veneers typically used in plywoods are the worst in appearance, since they cross the growth rings at such a very slight angle. Even something like okoume, were it sliced right, could actually look good. But slicing for good grain is more labor intensive and only select logs yield grain patterns worth doing it.

: But maybe the converse is true and 4 repeated rotational veneer is real
: cheap. Nice to dream, but it'd make the long continuous ply for the rest
: of the yak more possible that the real expensive veneer you have for the
: decks. And therefore the rest of us.

No veneer company even tries to sell rotational cut veneer because it is so ugly, not because it is cheap. Even if it was only 10 cents a square foot, I would not buy it except for interior plys. The face veneers that we use aren't that expensive. Depending on the species, the face veneers for a typical deck can range from about $12 to $20 for lower priced species. Obviously, if one wanted Gaboon ebony, you would be looking at $100 or more.

: I think (but not sure) that the ply that most of us get from stores(not
: specialty) and get in kits is rotational. So somewhere, somehow one may be
: abel to get at it before it's made.

Yes it is, and like I mentioned above, you wouldn't like this veneer compared to veneer sliced to best show the grain patterns.

: So if you can get it, as you already make ply in complex moulds, you
: definately can make it in flat sections for other ordinary stitch yaks
: like pygmys and clcs.

Yes, it can be done quite easily, and no need for scarf or butt joints, make it full length and match the panels side to side. There would be end matches of the face veneers to get the lengths, but these could have essentially seamless matching grain, growth ring to growth ring.

: To me, the iconic quick image of a kayak is the profile view. It's the view
: that really sets the long swooping lines and curves. If it's broken up and
: ESPecially by 90 deg(unless matched) joints, it's jarring and
: contradictory to this continuous line or unity. The basic possibility of
: making this joint in the shear at least disappear and the grain and colour
: flow is what intrigues me.
: Feels to me like the bass line in music. Like the sheer is almost the
: foundation. Interrupting either brings up issues.

If one were to take the time, you could veneer up panels that would really flow together with the lines of the kayak. Pick grain patterns that flow with the shapes of the panels, and really take some time. You could mold hull panels to shape, or complete hulls, for that matter. Almost nobody could afford the yak, but it could be incredibly beautiful. And, yes, it could make a lot of strippers look pretty plain. But at this point we are no longer talking S&G, but a whole different process. Sure would be fun to try..don't tempt me, I have done crazier things (You should see the ponds, waterfalls, artifical rock formations, banana trees, and 30 foot bamboo in our house - yes this is nortnern Minnesota - and some of our friends call it Disneyland of the North) Of course, if you are willing to come and help....

: so some asides

: Beatiful deck you've shown, and because you only have 7 foot length I really
: appreciate the angled cuts you used near the cockpit instead of 90s. I
: think this is what all stitch yaks should do at all cross joints. I can't
: believe that the 90 deg joints aren't simply angled to more go w/ the yak
: flow of lines. Too bad the sap wood wasn't just a bit bigger.

This was just one example from one set of veneer. If we ordered Emberwood again, it would probably be different and may or may not have the sap wood. Most people would have trimmed it off, but we decided to leave it in to give more of a pattern. It doesn't show much on the rear deck because the cockpit opening took most of it out.

: Altho it would take guts to do, have you ever sliced(say a razor knife dont
: lose wood by sawing)a set of these panels(especially the dark ones) up
: into say strips 1in wide(or 3/4 or whatever curves) to say 2ft from the
: join line and then curved them to follow the sheer. Then inset in the
: middle in front and behind the cockpit. Like a stripper, but its all one
: pc still joined close near the paddler and his eyes and fading and curving
: off in front and behind?

Haven't tried this. The list of possibilites is getting endless.

: And I want to compliment you again for making the cockpit recesses in your
: stitchers. It is another aspect that makes other stitchers clunky to me
: and is so so easy to remedy.

We started doing the cockpit recesses after seeing how good they looked on Nick's designs. It is actually really easy to do. On our okoume plywood decks, we make the recess out a piece of darker meranti and run the grain 90 degrees to the deck. Anyone could do this on a CLC or Pygmy yak. It is a lot less scarey to cut the bigger hole needed for this in a blah plywood deck than a nice looking stripper. Fitting the recess is really simple, takes about 20 minutes (after the first one).

: When you make your decks, I wonder why you put layers of glass in the ctr.
: I'm no engineer, but would it be better if you used more flexible
: layers(kill me here but dynel, nylon or poly?) in the ctr. and esp the
: layer just below the face veneer. Eliminate the second layer, and put one
: on the i/s and then one on the o/s when attaching. Or if you are using
: terrribley thin cloth for maximum deck beauty, glass below face, then
: flex, then thicker glass on i/s. Maybe someone else will comment.

Well, an engineer would probably say there is a better way, but after a few test panels, what we do seemed to give good results. Something more flexible would give a less stiff deck. There is probably some ultra optimum layup, but for the purpose at hand is probably not worth pursuing. By the way, the initial layup of these decks has no glass on the outside. We put on a 4 oz exterior layer after the deck is installed and run it over the seam. So we end up with 3 layers of wood and 4 layers of glass that totals 22 oz. May seem like overkill, but you need it on this thin of a deck to get the stiffness.

: When you place the veneer, you mentioned having difficulty keeping it all in
: line. What if you inverted the vaccuum and vaccuumed from below thereby
: sucking the pcs in place. I presume the first thing you do to the veneer
: is seal it incase it gets stained so there is some surface to it. Drill 20
: say 1/16in holes thru the front deck and 20 thru the back deck and stick
: in kebab sticks. Attach blanket or bleeder ply below deck, then plastic,
: attach hose and pull vaccum. Take out the sticks for the front 1/4 pc and
: push down. With any luck might stay. Take out back 1/4 pointed sticks, lay
: out and over lay corresponding back 1/4, and only then double cut thru.
: etc etc. Then when all laid out use a t-fitting and apply the vaccuum from
: above like before so you don't pull epoxy down the littl holes.

: might work

: sure be fun screwing up whole deck mold w/ little holes just find out

Not really that hard to keep lined up. Just need to make sure that it is. Cutting the join edges is the time consuming part, since straight edges don't fit together on the shape of the deck. When we get the face veneers cut to fit, the whole thing gets taped together, and can be flipped over, moved around, etc. with no problem.

: -mick

This whole topic is really interesting, and there is certainly an opportunity to create a whole new type of wooden kayak that nobody seems to be doing at this time. Some day I will maybe pursue this (maybe next week, Christy will kill me!!). I get bored REALLY easy. But if I do get carried away by this, promise you will quit your job and come and help...and bring friends!!

Later,
Grant