Hi Grant
Essentially you're saying some suppositions and more( more than 4 vertical grained sheets can be obtained) could be true. Extremely interesting.

And you say that rotational veneer is not obtainable b/c no one wants it. And yet isn't the unmatched ply that everyone uses (clc, pygmy, any one of us)for stitch yaks rotational? Sounds simplistic in the extreme to just make(like the ply guys)rotational matches as well as the usual. Like would it be worth it to beg them for some, get some summer term students for a wk or so to make up some sets,(you would know how much makes a yak) and see if you could flog it to the big boys and others to? Like make the ply real simple w/ no glass or some minimal nylon to hold together and the blder adds the glass for stiffness. Would it also make many stitchers easier to build?? like I've heard mention that some yaks(nick's for instance) are hard to coax into shape. Would it also open up some more wilder shape possibilities? Really push stitch and glue. This is an area I hadn't really thought possible, but have had some design notions lurking for some time. What face will bend more in both orientations(with grain and 90deg to it) without breaking - thin vertical grain or thin rotational?

: Actually, the size of the veneer is not a problem. Veneer is sliced from the
: log with a huge blade. An inch thickness of log gives you 30 to 40 sheets,
: so sheet 1 and sheet 40 will still pretty much match. You could line
: enough grain match to go around 2 or three yaks.

I just didn't know this.40? 40??? Is it cut that thin?

I think the vertical grained woods would be so powerful that for a full yak one'd want very plain vertical grain for the hull and contrast the deck. sort of contrary (the total unity) to my initial thrust.

: Good quality hardwood face veneers are sliced from the log at whatever angle
: gives the desired grain pattern. The rotationally peeled veneers typically
: used in plywoods are the worst in appearance, since they cross the growth
: rings at such a very slight angle. Even something like okoume, were it
: sliced right, could actually look good. But slicing for good grain is more
: labor intensive and only select logs yield grain patterns worth doing it.

worst in appearance notwithstanding, a quadruple matching set would make better appearing yaks. And them with this being the background or field you could go nuts w/ smaller pcs of veneer inset. Like say you laid out the cheapass veneer in the mould, laid 4 smallish pcs of beautiful coordinated veneer and double cut your company name(backward w/ razor knife)with wide letters so the grain character was obvious. throw away the edges and crap underneath and place in the letters. Or just cut the letters in the crap ply, throw away the letters, set in some plastic for release, lay on small pcs of the exotic on the hole w/ scrap veneer to the edges and lay up. Get inset letters by one veneer thickness. Maybe interesting advertising.

: If one were to take the time, you could veneer up panels that would really
: flow together with the lines of the kayak. Pick grain patterns that flow
: with the shapes of the panels, and really take some time. You could mold
: hull panels to shape, or complete hulls, for that matter. Almost nobody
: could afford the yak, but it could be incredibly beautiful. And, yes, it
: could make a lot of strippers look pretty plain. But at this point we are
: no longer talking S&G, but a whole different process.

No, I am really solely talking about ordinary stitch and glue that any of us could get in kits or plans.(so your decks are a special case beyond this)

:Something more
: flexible would give a less stiff deck. There is probably some ultra
: optimum layup, but for the purpose at hand is probably not worth pursuing.
: By the way, the initial layup of these decks has no glass on the outside.
: We put on a 4 oz exterior layer after the deck is installed and run it
: over the seam. So we end up with 3 layers of wood and 4 layers of glass
: that totals 22 oz. May seem like overkill, but you need it on this thin of
: a deck to get the stiffness.

What I really meant to say was something like kevlar just under the face grain so that was the plane that flexed either way and yet was strong enough not to tear in smashes. Like laminated car windshields,or windows w/ laminated glass - hard to puncture w/ the sledgehammer. Then the glass on either side would give the stiffness

: This whole topic is really interesting, and there is certainly an opportunity
: to create a whole new type of wooden kayak that nobody seems to be doing
: at this time. Some day I will maybe pursue this (maybe next week, Christy
: will kill me!!). I get bored REALLY easy. But if I do get carried away by
: this, promise you will quit your job and come and help...and bring
: friends!!

I guess what I was fundamentally talking about was the real exotic building procedure but that doing the same old thing and just having matching ply would give some amazing possibilities of coordination, deckmatch, bow match, stern match and keel match.

But those cool ones you keep mentioning!!

-mick