Date: 7/9/1998, 7:49 am
Ok, you finally forced me to go pull out my engineering handbook and study a bit. Here's it is in short:
For a flat plate, which a kayak rudder usually is, the lift generated by a change in the angle of attack falls off faster with a high aspect ratio then it does with a lower aspect ratio. Ie, the longer and skinnier the rudder, the worse it works for steering. The "burble point" [where lift abruptly drops] being about 38 degrees angle of attack for an aspect ratio of 1, while only 25 degrees for an aspect ratio of 9. This means a higher aspect ratio rudder is far more likely to not turn a boat, especially if the rudder is thrown hard over. Efficiency is great, but not if it means the loss of steering control as a result.
I also extrapolated the data out for a G-438 airfoil (symetrical). Roughly the same.
Yes, a high aspect ratio is more efficient then a lower aspect ratio, but (and it's a big important but) only when the angle of attack is zero. This high efficiency is significant for the keel, daggar board, skeg, leeboard or whatever straightline low attack angle device is being used. Not so as much for the rudder which works by not having an attack angle of zero.
This is bolstered by my observation of rudder designs and most of the design recommendations for them that I have seen from boat designers, who usually suggest an aspect ratio of between 1 and 3 for boat rudders.
> A high aspect ratio rudder will provide more efficient turning
> moment than a low aspect rudder. The main reason you don't see them
> on sailboats is structural. America's Cup boats tend to have high
> aspect keels and rudders, but they can afford the neccessary materials.
> It is generally a good idea to keep a rudder from sticking below the
> keel because, you don't want the rudder to break off. This problem
> is solved in kayaks (and some sailboats) by having the rudder kick
> up.
Messages In This Thread
- Mayday Mayday! boat goes left
David Walker -- 7/6/1998, 9:17 pm- Re: Try another paddler
Jay Babina -- 7/7/1998, 2:32 pm- Re: Mayday Mayday! boat goes left
Mark Kanzler -- 7/7/1998, 11:51 am- Re: rudders
NPenney -- 7/8/1998, 8:17 am- Re: Aspect ratio.
Mark Kanzler -- 7/8/1998, 11:21 am- Re: Aspect ratio.
NPenney -- 7/8/1998, 2:34 pm- Re: Aspect ratio.
Nick Schade -- 7/8/1998, 3:17 pm- Re: Higher Aspect ratio = No Steering
NPenney -- 7/9/1998, 7:49 am- Re: Higher Aspect ratio = No Steering
Mark Kanzler -- 7/9/1998, 10:38 am- Re: Higher Aspect ratio = No Steering
NPenney -- 7/9/1998, 11:50 am- Re: Old Textbooks, etc.
Mark Kanzler -- 7/11/1998, 12:52 am- Re: Old Textbooks, etc.
NPenney -- 7/10/1998, 2:53 pm
- Re: Old Textbooks, etc.
- Re: Old Textbooks, etc.
- Re: Higher Aspect ratio = No Steering
- Re: Higher Aspect ratio = No Steering
- Re: Higher Aspect ratio = No Steering
- Re: Aspect ratio.
- Re: Aspect ratio.
- Re: Here's a sketch of one possible solution (as described in prev post)
Mark Kanzler -- 7/8/1998, 12:41 am- Image link still not working.
Mike Spence -- 7/7/1998, 1:28 pm- Re: Image link still not working. (Sorry)
Mark Kanzler -- 7/7/1998, 1:56 pm- Re: Image working.(?)
Mark Kanzler -- 7/8/1998, 1:26 am- Not yet. - Don't despair!
Mike Spence -- 7/8/1998, 1:19 pm- Re: Not yet. - Don't despair!
Mark Kanzler -- 7/8/1998, 2:18 pm- Re: Here it is! (Satisfaction Guaranteed)
Mark Kanzler -- 7/8/1998, 10:23 pm- Re: Here it is! (Satisfaction Guaranteed)
David Walker -- 7/10/1998, 10:28 am- Re: Surfbard skegs.
Mark Kanzler -- 7/10/1998, 11:58 am- Re: Surfbard skegs.
David Walker -- 7/10/1998, 1:49 pm- Re: Surfbard skegs.
David Walker -- 7/10/1998, 5:30 pm- Re: Surfbard skegs.
Mark Kanzler -- 7/12/1998, 11:08 am- Re: Surfbard skegs.
Paul Jacobson -- 7/12/1998, 7:18 pm
- Re: Surfbard skegs.
- Re: Surfbard skegs site (try it again please).
Mark Kanzler -- 7/10/1998, 2:50 pm- Re: Surfbard skegs site (try it again please).
Mike Spence -- 7/10/1998, 6:51 pm
- Re: Surfbard skegs.
- Re: Surfbard skegs.
- Re: Surfbard skegs.
- Re: Here it is! (Satisfaction Guaranteed)
Nick Schade -- 7/9/1998, 4:12 pm- Re: Here it is! (Satisfaction Guaranteed)
Mark Kanzler -- 7/11/1998, 12:37 am
- Re: Surfbard skegs.
- Re: Here it is! (Satisfaction Guaranteed)
- Re: Here it is! (Satisfaction Guaranteed)
- Re: Not yet. - Don't despair!
- Not yet. - Don't despair!
- Re: Image working.(?)
- Re: Image link still not working. (Sorry)
- Re: Mayday Mayday! boat goes left
Mark Kanzler -- 7/8/1998, 12:39 am - Re: Aspect ratio.
- My $0.02
CHad -- 7/7/1998, 11:29 am- P.S.
CHad -- 7/7/1998, 11:56 am
- Re: Mayday Mayday! boat goes left
NPenney -- 7/7/1998, 7:33 am- how I solved mine.
R. N. Sabolevsky -- 7/6/1998, 11:56 pm- Re: Mayday Mayday! boat goes left
Duane Strosaker -- 7/6/1998, 11:38 pm- Re: Mayday Mayday! boat goes left
Mike Spence -- 7/7/1998, 12:11 pm
- Re: Mayday Mayday! boat goes left
Paul Jacobson -- 7/6/1998, 11:20 pm- Off center fins and water flow
David Walker -- 7/8/1998, 5:28 pm- Re: Off center fins and water flow
NPenney -- 7/9/1998, 11:57 am- Re: Off center fins and water flow
Mike Spence -- 7/9/1998, 5:56 pm- Re: Off center fins and water flow
Paul Jacobson -- 7/11/1998, 2:53 am- Re: Off center fins and water flow
Mark Kanzler -- 7/10/1998, 11:47 am- Re: Off center fins and water flow
NPenney -- 7/10/1998, 6:22 am - Re: Off center fins and water flow
- Re: Off center fins and water flow
- Re: Skegs and water flow.
Mark Kanzler -- 7/8/1998, 6:10 pm- Re: Skegs and water flow.
David Walker -- 7/8/1998, 6:42 pm- Re: Skegs and water flow.
Mark Kanzler -- 7/8/1998, 7:07 pm- Re: Skegs and water flow.
David Walker -- 7/10/1998, 10:37 am- Re: Skeg attachment w/ silicone.
Mark Kanzler -- 7/10/1998, 11:34 am
- Re: Skeg attachment w/ silicone.
- Re: Skegs and water flow.
- Re: Skegs and water flow.
- Re: Off center fins and water flow
- Re: Off center fins and water flow
- Re: Mayday Mayday! boat goes left
Wes Boyd -- 7/6/1998, 10:36 pm - Re: Mayday Mayday! boat goes left
- Re: Try another paddler