Oh dear, I told myself I'd never get into one of these silly debates again and here I go. More facts and opinions; you can decide which are facts.

1) We changed from 3mm to 4mm decks because we did hear of a few cracked decks. If you don't improve your product you fall behind.

2) Anyone who has been getting catalogs from both companies can decide who uses negative advertising. Hint: have a good look at the latest catalogs.

3) Maybe the electrical tape thing was a cheap shot, but they brag about their wonderful joint and then put black tape over them - those joint look the same on all S&G boats. They had that one coming.

4) I think sheer clamp should be used on any boat, no matter what type of deck it has. There are many good reasons to use them, but I do think you could do an arched deck without them.

5) Don't take my opinion about scarfs - ask any really good pro builder.

6) John is not always negative and aggressive and I'm not always (okay, this part is only opinion) a great guy, but that's not the point. Read the catalogs and web sites, drop by the shops and then decide who's corporate attitude you like better.

7) Having two good companies in competition does result in better boats and better prices. You win in this debate either way.

8) Do you find yourself waking up in the middle of the night to look at a spec. sheet again? I hope not. Go for the stripper.

9) Instead of leaving work early and going paddling (the West River 180 was already on my roofrack) I've spent the last 1/2 hour of daylight on this damn post. That's it -- no more; buy any kayak kit you want; I'm outta here.

Chris

> Welcome to the board Chris! I enjoyed your book and believe that it is a
> great resource for new builders. If you have read more than the CLC v.
> Pygmy posts you will understand that boat design and building techniques
> are freely shared and often questioned. The CLC v. Pygmy debate is one
> presented to nearly every person that is considering home-building a S&G
> kit. I went through the debate several months ago (and am still debating,
> but leaning toward a strip-built at the moment). After reviewing both the
> CLC and Pygmy brochures and web sites I came out with the opinion that
> both companies are very good, both use similar techniques, and both had
> strong opinions about the other company's techniques when the technique
> differed. I am VERY surprised that you accuse Pygmy (correct me if you
> meant another "certain competitor") of negative advertising. The
> discussion on BOTH of your brochures/sites are critical of techniques used
> by the other. The consumer needs to read between the lines and look for
> the truth, and, more importantly, look for which design/technique they
> prefer. As you stated, these are all great boats and the most important
> thing is to build them and go paddling. I believe that the decision in
> choosing a boat should be based on your chance to paddle the different
> designs, as opposed to getting into a war over scarfing. I hope not that I
> am not overly aggressive in questioning your comments below, but I had the
> impression that they were more advertising spin than substance.

> I guess that Jon K's friend had a Patuxent, or didn't follow the plans.

> Arched decks require shear clamps and screws - no choice either.

> I am not sure what "fact" you are seeking to correct here,
> unless you wanted to take the opportunity to aggressively dig at your
> competitors. We're not talking about thick-hulled boats, or joints that
> are going to be severely curved. I also don't believe that the curve
> required in any of the scarf joints (of either CLC or Pygmy designs) is
> ever as severe as the photograph you have on your web site. Both companies
> spend a lot of time on the scarfing issue, but it doesn't seem to matter
> that much. I do applaud you in coming up with a stepped scarf that sounds
> like it is easier to match up pieces.

> I have thought alot about this claim. Does the weight include the extra
> weight of the shear clamps? Also, are you comparing the stiffness of an
> encapsulated deck versus an unencapsulated cambered deck? I would think
> that would affect the stiffness. If you are merely saying that an arch is
> strong, then I am not sure where that comparison takes you, particularly
> when there are people who have cracked a CLC deck.

> This appears to me as a cheap shot. Readers that have made it this far in
> this post can check out the photos on Pygmy's site. Some have a black line
> on the level of the deck, others do not (with NO unsightliness). Check out
> the photos of the Goldeneye for example. I am not going to assume that
> CLC's pictures of its painted hulls are hiding poor quality wood, I am
> surprised that Chris assumes the tape is hiding poor craftsmanship. I
> think Jon K's comment about rubrails was regard to the width of the boat
> at the deck. He found the Pygmy-style deck easier to paddle. Personally I
> do like a rounded deck, but also like an upswept bow and flush hatches
> (hence my leaning towards a strip-boat).

> We would need to know Pygmy's numbers to decide why a kit is cheaper. I
> think that it is great that there are two strong competitors out there
> putting pressure on each other's designs and costs.

> Each company says bad things about the other (see the above post for
> example). I was under the impression that BOTH companies have fantastic
> customer service and care about their customers. I have met John and the
> others at Pygmy and NEVER would I call them negative or agressive.

> Agreed.