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Re: Why not a little of both?
By:Kris Buttermore
Date: 12/3/2007, 2:19 pm
In Response To: Why not a little of both? (Paul G. Jacobson)

All of what you suggest has been tried many times over many centuries. All manner of shapes and sizes, mostly resulting in bad paddles that were not replicated. A skinny bladed euro is not a GP, and a wide bladed GP is not a GP (think about total volume and weight!). Neither will be able to perform as well as a traditional GP (there's so much more than meets the eye with the deceptively simple GP).

Main reason not to mix and match is it tends to result in poor compromises (on things already very well balanced out before you start mucking with it). It's like combining a sofa and a bed to get a hide-a-bed, which in use gives you both a heavy uncomfortable sofa AND a heavy uncomfortable bed!

I'm not saying not to experiment - as I've done some of what you suggest. Every paddle I've made has been an experiment to some degree. Even the ones that are "traditional" in size and shape were customized for my use. I have one thats basically a GP inspired symmetrical unfeathered surf paddle. Quite short with very wide blades. GP like cross sections, unshouldered. It's heavy, but works OK - though no where near as well as a regular GP from just about anything. It is sort of nice to roll with - and if lighter might make a nice no-brainer roll training paddle that would work for both sea and WW paddlers. My latest is a sort of GP/Aleut/Wing hybrid with spooned out blades that actually does work - very well in fact - but I doubt many others would like it or that it would catch on. A wing paddler would have no interest, a GP user might be curious but likely won't want to give up GP versatility/variety for the speed gain. So no market, but it's still a great paddle with some benefits from all (and I have and use all types). My current favorite to paddle with (but a GP always comes along too).

Experiments are fun, and can be productive, but I would never approach this stuff with any illusions of actually bettering the GP (or Aleut) beyond dialing in my sizing/minor shape preferences. These x paddles that go beyond that do what I wanted them to, but something is always traded away, thus they are in no way as good in a general sense as a decent GP. If I could only have one paddle - no doubt what I'd pick. Fortunately, I am not limited and can keep all 14: 6 GP (4 wrc, 2 CF), 1 Aleut, 2 hybrids, 2 euros (one CF one wood - have had another 6 or so before these), 1 single blade, an EPIC wing, and a nice cedar 2x4 yet to be carved...

So, I'm not defending GP from any traditional/dogmatic perspective. While I do have a preference for the GP, it's purely a functional orientation and not a romantic one. Greenland (and Aleut) paddles are not merely curious museum pieces. Nor are they limited in form/function through some deficit or oversight in their development. They are the result of centuries of refinement and testing - in real world use, as survival tools not recreational toys. Damn hard to beat that, or even find another paddle type that has a comparable pedigree.

Problems/limits attributed to them are largely cases of misunderstandings, misuse/under use, bad sizing, and poor carving (all GPs are FAR from created equal - and those new to them are least likely to know what to carve, how to adjust, what feel right/wrong, etc.).

A well carved and well sized GP will pretty much teach you how to use it (and over time how to get the most out of it) if you let it. If it's carved poorly that won't likely happen. If it's sized poorly, it almost certainly wont happen. If you try to force euro habits on it - it will just plain suck (same can be said for wing).

They're not for everyone, or every use. They are certainly better suited to narrower craft - and on open water vs. shallow rivers - but otherwise the stuff about lower stroke angles, higher cadences, more slip, and less power is misleading. Anecdotal accounts of poor results reflect true individual experiences, but are not representative of the performance that regular/long time users experience - and we don't all poke along or spend out water time just rolling 100' from shore.

Don't get sucked in by the 2x4/primitive mentality. Given the user and intended uses, I think the Greenland paddle is an exceptionally high level piece of design/technology. I'm hard pressed to find many other items, from any culture, that achieves a similar level of refinement. All the GPs we see in use are thoroughly contemporary/modern designs.

"Traditionalists" are suggesting people carve to certain guidelines because those guidelines are well tested and shown to WORK. There are some limits to following them exactly (particularly for very large and very small paddlers), but that is why these are general guidelines and not rules or fixed plans. Smart carvers/shoppers look at several sizing methods and talk to other carvers/users to gain insight on what particular adjustments to the average plans might be good for them - just as was traditionally done - yielding different paddles for different users/uses...

: Traditionalists would like to see Greenland paddles made as closely as
: possible to the sizes and shapes which have been used for centuries.
: Obviously people who use Euro paddles are not going to fit in the category
: of "traditionalist". If you are one of those who are willing to
: shuck the label, then you've opened doors to all kinds of possibilities.

: Most instructions for making Greenland paddles seem to start you with a cedar
: 2x4. Depending on your lumber source you might get a blade which is 3.5
: inches wide, or one which is 4 inches wide. These are much narrower than
: the blades on a Euro paddle. So compromise on tradition and start with a
: 2x6, or maybe rip a 2x10 in half and use what would be, I guess, a 2x5. Or
: go really big and whittle down a 2x8.

: You can approach the paddle idea from the opposite direction too. Make
: spoon-shaped blades (ala Euro style) which are longer and narrower than
: the usual Euro blades, and mount these on a shorter shaft. Such a longer,
: narrower neo-Euro style paddle would have some of the advantages of a GP
: (such as less resistance and a faster, lighter cadence. But at the same
: time it would have some of the advantages of the Euro designs.

: This country was founded on compromise. Take several ideas into the shop and
: blend them together to create something new. It is the American thing to
: do. Leave Greenland and European ideas behind you and emigrate to a new
: American paddle design, created by you in the tradition of E Pluribus Unum
: (That is Latin for: out of many screwy ideas, one is going to be a bit
: less screwy) :)

: Remember that one of the joys of building your own is that you get to
: experiment with ideas that are not on the market. So be creative and try
: something wildly different.

: Building paddles is relatively cheap. If you cut all the wood for 5 or 6
: paddle shafts at one time, you can make an assortment of styles of blades
: and glue up different paddle styles at your leisure.

: Enjoy your paddle building.

: PGJ

Messages In This Thread

Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
Kudzu -- 11/30/2007, 1:59 pm
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
fred Gasper -- 12/2/2007, 11:17 pm
Thank you all
Kudzu -- 12/2/2007, 7:21 pm
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
John Van Buren -- 12/2/2007, 6:38 pm
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
Bill Hamm -- 12/3/2007, 2:19 am
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
Bill Hamm -- 12/2/2007, 1:59 am
Re: GP - recent convert
Carl Delo -- 12/2/2007, 12:03 am
Re: GP - recent convert
Kudzu -- 12/2/2007, 8:28 am
Why not a little of both?
Paul G. Jacobson -- 11/30/2007, 11:33 pm
Re: Why not a little of both?
Kris Buttermore -- 12/3/2007, 2:19 pm
Re: Why not a little of both?
Bill Hamm -- 12/6/2007, 2:09 am
Re: Why not a little of both?
Kris Buttermore -- 12/6/2007, 11:38 am
Re: Why not a little of both?
Bill Hamm -- 12/2/2007, 2:08 am
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle *LINK*
Pedro Almeida -- 11/30/2007, 7:11 pm
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
Brian Nystrom -- 12/1/2007, 8:52 am
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 12/1/2007, 6:10 pm
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
Brian Nystrom -- 12/3/2007, 8:41 am
Canted Technique ?
Bris Paul -- 12/2/2007, 2:08 am
Re: Canted Technique ? *LINK*
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 12/2/2007, 9:35 am
Thanks Nick ! *NM*
Bris Paul -- 12/3/2007, 12:43 am
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
Toni V -- 12/1/2007, 5:53 am
Paddle efficiency
Jay Babina -- 12/1/2007, 11:59 am
Re: Paddle efficiency
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 12/1/2007, 5:59 pm
I Always Thought . . .
Mike Scarborough -- 12/2/2007, 11:17 am
Re: Paddle efficiency
Toni V -- 12/1/2007, 3:38 pm
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
Kudzu -- 11/30/2007, 8:00 pm
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
Tom Simpson -- 12/1/2007, 2:24 am
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
Bris Paul -- 11/30/2007, 10:27 pm
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
Tripp Stanley -- 11/30/2007, 5:38 pm
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
Kudzu -- 11/30/2007, 6:08 pm
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
Joy -- 11/30/2007, 4:32 pm
Re: Paddle: Greenland vs Double Paddle
Don Goss -- 11/30/2007, 3:06 pm