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Re: Skin-on-Frame: Increasing Secondary Stability?
By:Brian Nystrom
Date: 11/30/2001, 11:53 am
In Response To: Re: Skin-on-Frame: Increasing Secondary Stability? (Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks)

: If you are having trouble keeping the boat under you, I would suspect initial
: stability, not secondary. Or more specifically the relative difference
: between initial and secondary.

I'm not so sure that this is the case. See below.

: You will not increase secondary stability
: by moving the stringers towards the keel, however by decreasing the
: initial stability, you will make the secondary more pronounced, even if
: the absolute value of the secondary is reduced. Like you say, it is a
: ratio thing.

That's what I suspected.

: Without knowing exactly how the boat gets squirrly in waves I'll suggest one
: possiblity: You say that it hard to keep the boat under you, but you
: aren't saying you actually are capsizing.

After tiring myself out by constantly correcting the boat with my hips, I finally did capsize once.

: This could be because of
: relatively too much secondary. As you sit on the slope of a wave the boat
: tilts easily relative to the water surface until the secondary kicks in,
: thus trying to throw you. This could be due to a sudden increase in the
: slope of your stability curve.

I don't think that's the case here. The boat simply doesn't push back when it's close to the capsize point. I guess you would say that it generates very little righting force. This makes it awesome in regular waves and broadside surf, as it simply sits there as the water moves around it. In confused chop, where you're getting batted around from all sides, it makes it a pain to keep the boat level, as I have to constantly correct it with my hips. It's a feeling that I'm falling over rather than like I'm being pushed over. In contrast, when the Nordkapp falls over onto it's edge, there is a significant righting force that I can rely on to keep me from going over. It's not enough to cause problems in beam waves, but it's enough to allow me to relax and allow the boat to do much of the work.

: I don't think that reducing the "pinching" near the ends would
: necessarily increase your secondary. The pinching creates a boat that is
: effectively a little shorter. This can help in choppy conditions because
: the boat will fit between waves a little better. A long boat that tends to
: bridge between waves can feel very unstable when the ends are supported in
: seperate waves.

This is definitely true when paddling into waves or in following seas. The boat provides a very smooth - albeit wet - ride as it slices through waves. In following seas, waves will at times come right up the aft deck, part around the coaming, then cross over the foredeck. It's a strange feeling being enveloped by the water, but the boat feels fine in these situations.

I'd also like to note that the boat is fine in relatively rough water as long as the waves are consistantly from one direction. It's confused water that creates a problem. In the area in question, the water was just just splashing up and down in small peaks all over the place, without a really dominant wave direction. It's hard to explain.

: It is possible you would find the boat more comfortable with less secondary
: as it will be less effected by waves. Keeping the same waterline beam
: while reducing the overall width would reduce the secondary without
: effecting the primary.

After reading my explanation above, do you still think this is the case?

: Below is a link to a long article on stability

Thanks, I'll check it out...thoroughly. :)

Messages In This Thread

Skin-on-Frame: Increasing Secondary Stability?
Brian Nystrom -- 11/29/2001, 2:55 pm
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Increasing Secondary Stability?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 11/30/2001, 10:26 am
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Increasing Secondary Stability?
Brian Nystrom -- 11/30/2001, 11:53 am
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Increasing Secondary Stability?
LeeG -- 11/30/2001, 2:06 pm
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Increasing Secondary Stability?
Brian Nystrom -- 11/30/2001, 3:14 pm
looking at those pictures...
risto -- 12/1/2001, 7:37 am
Re: looking at those pictures...
Brian Nystrom -- 12/3/2001, 12:23 pm
Re: looking at those pictures...
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 12/3/2001, 4:45 pm
Re: looking at those pictures...
Brian Nystrom -- 12/3/2001, 5:14 pm
Re: looking at those pictures...
Shawn Baker -- 12/5/2001, 5:47 pm
Re: looking at those pictures...
Brian Nystrom -- 12/6/2001, 12:13 pm
Re: looking at those pictures...
John Haynes -- 12/5/2001, 1:23 pm
Re: looking at those pictures...
Greg Stamer -- 12/5/2001, 2:17 pm
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Increasing Secondary Stability?
LeeG -- 11/30/2001, 9:59 pm
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Increasing Secondary Stability?
Brian Nystrom -- 12/3/2001, 12:16 pm
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Increasing Secondary Stability?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 11/30/2001, 1:46 pm
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Increasing Secondary Stability?
Brian Nystrom -- 11/30/2001, 2:57 pm
Very interesting article, Nick!
risto -- 11/30/2001, 12:49 pm
Re: Very interesting article, Nick!
Brian Nystrom -- 11/30/2001, 2:52 pm
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Increasing Secondary Stability?
mike allen ---> -- 11/29/2001, 6:40 pm
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Increasing Secondary Stability?
Brian Nystrom -- 11/30/2001, 11:25 am
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Increasing Secondary Stability?
West -- 11/29/2001, 6:08 pm
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Increasing Secondary Stability?
Brian Nystrom -- 11/30/2001, 11:18 am