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Go with the old wood/canvas canoe model
By:Paul G. Jacobson
Date: 4/27/2002, 12:48 am
In Response To: Re: Newbie contruction review, hardwood difs (Mike Loriz)

: . . . I would like to try to shift
: some responsibility away from glass to wood.

So you want a 32 pound kayak, eh.

And you want it to be wood and not be so heavily adorned with plastic resins and glass fibers.

Well, as the radio announcer used to say, (lowering my voice) "Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear"

Get a good look at a wood/canvas canoe. Its construction is similar to that of guideboats, which Nick has already described.

Also, take a look at skin-on-frame kayaks and examine their structural composition.

Now take a few moments, with a cold beverage in hand, and merge the two ideas.

OR, sit tight and I'll explain how I would merge the ideas.

First, there seem to be two frame styles for s-o-f kayaks. One uses a few rigid frames spaced at rather wide intervals (18 to 30 inches) longitudinal stringers which support the skin. These frames are usually cut from plywood, or made up from solid boards. As an example, the design of the Klepper kayak seems to fit this description. You can see the anatomy of a Klepper at their website, www.klepper.com.

The second type of kayak frame uses many thin ribs which are rather closely spaced (3 to 6 inches apart). These ribs are usually made by steaming the wood and bending it to size. The longitudinal stringers are frequently attached to these ribs by lashing with artifical sinew. I'm drawing a blank on the name of a design that uses this construction. (Perhaps someone can jump in and help me out here, and maybe link to a picture. I know there are several that are in the archives.) I think the kayak design in the book by Wolfgang Brink is of this type.

In addition to these two types of hull construction there are two types of deck construction. In one method the ribs or frames are donut shaped and serve as supports for the deck and for the hull. In the other type the ribs or frames are "u" shaped, and tie into a gunwale, or sheer chine. The deck is then laid over separate supports which rest on the gunwale or sheer chine.

I like the idea of using steambent ribs which are formed into rather oval shapes. If you are using hardwoods there are several great varieties to choose.
Space these about 4 inches apart. and then cover the outside with very thin hardwood strips, as you would use for a stripper.

The ribs provide the cross bracing and side-to-side strength that your glass/resin does in your current boats.

With a cloth or hide covered boat you need the stringers to give the boat some stiffness and strength along it's length, as the cloth skin certainly has none. Since your entire skin will be made of wood strips I think you can eliminate these chines completely and let the woodstrip "skin" provide the structure, stiffness and strength.

Someone has already mentioned the egg analogy to explain why a monocoque woodstrip kayak does not need internal bracing. For the same reason, it does not need chines.

So, with all this in mind, here is how I envision your next boat(s) (You seem to like building two at a time -- way to go!)

You'll start with a design for a woodstrip kayak, and make up forms that are 9/16 of an inch smaller on all sides. You would draw up hte plans, and then scribe a new line 9/16ths of inch inside the designed line (Overall the forms would be 1 and 1/8th inch narrower than the plans call for).

Once the forms are aligned on your strongback you connect them with strips of 1/2 inch thick wood. You can rip these from common softwoods: pine, spruce, fir, or whatever, and space them about 4 -6 inches apart. Screw them to the forms. It is not necessary that any one piece run the full length of the boat, Nor do you need to make any joints when connecting short pieces. If you end a strip on a form, then right next to it, either a little above or a little below, start another strip.

Once these strips are on the forms you'll have a sturdy mold over which you can bend your ribs to form them. The distance between the strips allows you space to fit in clamps. The thickness of these strips keeps them from bending instead of the rib material. The outside of this mold will be 1/16 th of an inch smaller on all sides (a total of 1/8th inch from left to right overall) than the design calls for.

Now bend your ribs around the form, clamping them securely until they harden into shape. Make the ribs from two layers of 3/32 thick hardwood about 1 1/2 to 2 inces wide, Or. use three layers of 1/16th inch thick wood. You should be able to bend wood this thin without steaming -- but go ahead and steam them if you must. Laminate the two layers with epoxy resin, offsetting the ends of each strip by at least 3 inches. Dry fit each piece, then coat them with resin or a waterproof glue and clamp them to the forms until the glue sets and you have a series of ribs with no apparent seams, which are 3/16ths thick, and about 1 1/2 to 2 inches wide.

Now remove most of the 1/2 inch strips from your mold, and take out most of the screws from the strips that remain. You'll need jsut a few to support things while the kayak is being constructed, but if you have too many strips or screws it will be difficult to remove them later on.

Get the ribs in place, and secure them to the softwood strips (from the inside of the boat) with a few small strips of masking tape or an occasional tiny drop of hotmelt glue. Then strip the outside of this as you would do a stripper, but use strips that are just 1/8th inch thick, don't use staples, and glue the strips to the ribs as you apply them.

You can use bead and cove shaper or router bits designed for thicker (1/4 inch) wood strips, and mill the edges of your strips, or, you can hand fit each strip, making occasional adjsutments by using a plane. These thin strips will not need much planing. You can use epoxy resin or a waterproof (not merely water resistant) glue. Paint a band of glue one each rib, along the path the strip will rest, lay on the strip, which will also be edge-glued to its neighbors, and use many clamps to hold it in place. After you have completed stripping on each side of the boat, and the boat is anywhere from 1/2 to 3/4 covered with strips, you can pull out the building forms. You may have to cut through some of the softwood strips that hold them together, but that is of little concern. If you have a problem getting hte bigger forms out, wait until you cut in for your cockpit and you should have a big enough hole to slip out any remaining forms.

As an alternate covering, you could use two layers of 1/16th inch thick wood. after placint the first two strips of this thin material on the ribs, cover the seam with the second piece. Then add a thirs strip to the bottom layer, then cover that seam with a second strip on the top layer. Working in this fashion you can use your clamps to hold these thin layers of wood together, and each one seals the potential leaks for the seams of the strips above or below.

If you use two layers of thin strips for the hull skin, and three layers for each rib, then you can use just 1/16th inch thick materials for the entire project. Once you set up to rip and plane such thin materials you just do everything. Forget bead and cove on thin stuff like this.

Your result will be a boat with 3/16th ribs and 1/8th inch skin. The thickness over the ribs will be 5/16, and between the ribs it will be just the skin (1/8th inch)> I wouldn't try to bang this over a lot of rocks, but this should be strong enough to last for many years. If you make a low volume boat that is short enough (maybe 15 feet) you should be able to get the weight down pretty close to your "two bowling ball" range. Maybe it will equal 2 bowling balls, plus a driver and a putter. :)

For added protection you may want to add a skid plate of 1/8th inch wood along the keel line.

It is imperative that you seal the entire boat with two coats of epoxy resin, to completely encpsulate the wood. Otherwise changes in the moisture content of the wood might cause some freaky warping. Varnish the outside for UV protection.

Add lengthwise strips along the cockpit area for more comfort than sitting on the ribs. These will also add stiffness along the length of the boat.

Anyhow, that's how I dream up doing a solid wood kayak. Comments welcome. Tests and experimental versions would be interesting to see.

If you need more info on the construction of wood/canvas canoes, e-mail me. I have a three page article on building these, which comes form an out-of-print/out-of-copyright building guide. I will be happy to try and scan and e-mail it to you.

PGJ

Messages In This Thread

Launching: photos?
Mike Loriz -- 4/23/2002, 9:16 pm
Another pic
Mike Loriz -- 4/24/2002, 10:40 am
Newbie contruction review, hardwood difs
Mike Loriz -- 4/24/2002, 2:18 pm
Re: Newbie contruction review, hardwood difs
Sam McFadden -- 4/25/2002, 12:56 am
Re: Newbie contruction review, hardwood difs
Mike Loriz -- 4/25/2002, 9:17 am
Re: Newbie contruction review, hardwood difs
Sam McFadden -- 4/25/2002, 11:27 am
Re: Newbie contruction review, hardwood difs
Andy -- 4/27/2002, 11:09 pm
Re: Newbie contruction review, hardwood difs
Sam McFadden -- 4/28/2002, 9:52 pm
Re: Newbie contruction review, hardwood difs
Mike Loriz -- 4/25/2002, 1:07 pm
Re: Newbie contruction review, hardwood difs
Sam McFadden -- 4/25/2002, 11:39 pm
Re: Newbie contruction review, hardwood difs
Mike Loriz -- 4/26/2002, 10:15 pm
Other species
Sam McFadden -- 4/27/2002, 12:09 pm
Re: Other species
Mike Loriz -- 4/28/2002, 9:10 pm
Re: Other species
Sam McFadden -- 4/28/2002, 9:45 pm
Re: Other species *Pic*
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/29/2002, 9:14 am
Re: Other species
Sam McFadden -- 4/29/2002, 5:27 pm
Go with the old wood/canvas canoe model
Paul G. Jacobson -- 4/27/2002, 12:48 am
Re: Go with the old wood/canvas canoe model
Mike Loriz -- 4/28/2002, 8:49 pm
Re: All Wood
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/26/2002, 10:06 am
No angels, pins or dancing needed :)
Paul G. Jacobson -- 4/25/2002, 9:10 pm
Re: No angels, pins or dancing needed :)
Mike Loriz -- 4/26/2002, 10:04 pm
Re: No angels, pins or dancing needed :)
Sam McFadden -- 4/25/2002, 11:24 pm
I would like jump in here
David Hanson -- 4/25/2002, 4:51 pm
What about using 1/8" Red Elm for strong strips?
John Monfoe -- 4/26/2002, 7:22 am
Re: What about using 1/8" Red Elm for strong strip
Mike Loriz -- 4/26/2002, 9:42 pm
Re: What about using 1/8" Red Elm for strong strip
John Monfoe -- 4/27/2002, 6:17 am
Re: What about using 1/8" Red Elm for strong strip
David Hanson -- 4/26/2002, 11:44 am
Use both feet :)
Paul G. Jacobson -- 4/25/2002, 9:58 pm
Re: I would like jump in here
Mike Loriz -- 4/25/2002, 9:40 pm
Now we are getting somewhere
David Hanson -- 4/26/2002, 11:36 am
Re: Now we are getting somewhere
Mike Loriz -- 4/26/2002, 9:33 pm
Re: I would like jump in here
Andreas -- 4/26/2002, 10:44 am
Re: I would like jump in here
Mike Loriz -- 4/26/2002, 9:04 pm
Re: The Wood Matters *Pic*
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/26/2002, 12:48 pm
Its a bird its a plane its a .....?
!RUSS -- 4/26/2002, 5:34 pm
Re: Its a bird its a plane its a .....? *Pic*
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/28/2002, 11:55 am
Re: The Wood Matters - You are right
Andreas -- 4/26/2002, 2:47 pm
Re: Credit *Pic*
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/26/2002, 5:16 pm
Re: Credit
Andreas -- 4/26/2002, 6:16 pm
Re: Delamination
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/28/2002, 12:41 pm
Re: Delamination
Mike Loriz -- 4/28/2002, 10:43 pm
Re: Delamination
Sam McFadden -- 4/30/2002, 12:08 am
Re: Delamination
Mike Loriz -- 4/30/2002, 12:37 pm
Calculations
Sam McFadden -- 4/26/2002, 12:43 pm
Re: Calculations
Mike Loriz -- 4/26/2002, 9:19 pm
Re: Newbie - Not!
Chip Sandresky -- 4/24/2002, 3:05 pm
Re: Newbie - Not!
Mike Loriz -- 4/24/2002, 7:06 pm
Re: Newbie - Not!
Steve Frederick -- 4/24/2002, 10:22 pm
Re: Newbie - Not!
Mike Loriz -- 4/25/2002, 8:44 am
Re: Launching: photos?
Mike Loriz -- 4/24/2002, 10:35 am
Re: Launching: photos?
Nick Schade - Guillemot Kayaks -- 4/24/2002, 9:35 am
Re: Launching: photos?
Bobby Curtis -- 4/23/2002, 11:14 pm
Re: Launching: photos?
Mike Loriz -- 4/24/2002, 7:00 pm
Doh!!
Sam McFadden -- 4/23/2002, 11:01 pm
Re: Launching: photos?
daren neufeld -- 4/23/2002, 10:29 pm
Great!
Sam McFadden -- 4/23/2002, 10:55 pm
Re: Great!
Mike Loriz -- 4/24/2002, 6:57 pm
Re: Launching: photos?
John Schroeder -- 4/23/2002, 10:17 pm
Re: Launching: photos?
Ronnie -- 4/23/2002, 9:28 pm