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Re: Skin-on-Frame: Walrus Q's
By:Paul G. Jacobson
Date: 5/22/2003, 12:25 am
In Response To: Re: Skin-on-Frame: Walrus Q's (Paul Probus)

: . . . Couldn't costs be reduced further, though, instead of
: making forms, making the actual floor frames and using them as the forms?
: My thougt was to cut the forms, as Putz says, then further cut them down
: to what is needed for the floor frames and screw temporary forms to
: elevate the boat and provide the form for the gunwales prior to
: tresseling. Then the temporaries are removed and the floor frames are left
: and the additional floor frames are added. I haven't worked it all out,
: yet, such as ensuring the temporary forms are still in alignment with the
: floor frames, etc., but I am trying to reduce waste and steps.

If you work from Putz's method of measurements you'll go nuts trying to do this. Using the coordinate graphing points you can draw your "frame" on newsprint, and then just cut out as much as you want from your plywood. Stacking two pieces of plywood, or a piece of plywood and a board, would allow you to cut the same dimensions for the floorboards as for the frame they are mounted near. Or, you can cut "oval" frames with the top of the oval replacing the deckbeams, and thus save a few steps. You would have one frame which served as a rib, a floorboard, and a deckbeam. This is actually farily common in some other designs.

: Is 4" of draft typical? My maximum draft goal is 6" and I find
: anything 4" - 6" acceptable.

This seems to be somewhere in the ballpark.

I think you may have come afoul of the lack of consistent specifications in designs. it is not uncommon for a designer to list the displacement as: design displacement, suggested load, maximum load, "capable of carrying XXX", "holds three adults or 4 monkeys", or some other such linguistic gobbletygook.

The hull design programs should cut through the nonsense and give you decent, hard, numbers about how the boat will perform when loaded with a given weight. Other than that, you are left with approximations, or advertising puffery.
That is an unfortunate case. If you build a model you can partially fill the model with water and actually measure the volume in a simple manner.

: . . . I left my book at home, I believe Putz
: mentions that the Walrus should really only be used on flat water. Does
: that mean I need to raise the gunwales if I intend on using it otherwise?

I don't recall reading that, and as the design was taken from ocean-going native craft, I'd tend to think the design a bit more rugged than just suitable for flat water. As for raising the gunwales: you would want to try to keep the designed freeboard. if you were keeping the length you would probably not need to make any alterations. Certainly if you built to the specifications of the 18.5 foot boat -- which would be a nice double -- your weight is well within the design specs. But, since you want a shorter boat, you can either go wider and lose speed and tracking, or you can accept that you will go a bit deeper, and gain stability. If you go deeper, then it would be good to have the gunwales raised.

: Seeing as you have built at least one,

Let me set the record straight here. I haven't had the time to build one yet. It is on my list of coming projects.

:. See, I was really hoping to build two kayaks, one similar to a
: Folbot/Klepper style (the reason I am looking at the BK 10 to upsize to
: 13' x 30") for flatwater use, especially on small creeks and rivers
: where I don't believe a larger boat would be able to handle very well,

Ummm, are the waterways so narrow that a 13 foot boat will fit but a 15 foot boat won't? 2 feet in additional length need not rule out a boat design. The "rocker" in the hull design will affect the ability of a boat of any given size to turn easily. That may be more important than the boat's length.
Paddling a short, wide, boat you may be constantly making corrective strokes. people who tire of that ad on keels, skegs, rudders or fins to make shorter boats track better -- and when the boat tracks better it is more difficult to turn. It would be easy to create the paradoxical situation of a 15 foot boat which turned easier than a 12 foot boat -- just have the 15 foot boat with lots of rocker, and the 12 foot boat with a keel and large skeg.

If you are going to build two boats, why not cut the forms for a 17 foot walrus and use those for both boats. Space them for a 14 to 15 foot boat and add an inch or 2 to the gunwale height (sidewall height). After you pop the frame off of the forms, reposition the forms so they will make an 18 foot boat. The added length should cover your added load very nicely, and this will give yow a swift boat for the bays. You can cut duplicates of the floorboards which fit in by the forms, and even do these when you cut the forms, so you'll save a bit of time and get both of these boats out on the water in a fairly short time.

: . . . but then, I don't believe that, for a recreational single
: kayak, anything longer than 15' is really needed. For more serious
: kayaker's, there is no limit, but I can't see trying to cartop, carry,
: etc. a kayak longer than 15'.

The added length allows for the boat to go faster if there is a strong enough paddler. It also adds displacement, which compensates for a heavier load, such a camper might carry. A 17 foot boat is only a few pounds heavier than a 15 foot one, and the additional overhang on a rooftop carrier is just a foot more at each end. Don't talk yourself out of a longer boat so easily. frequently the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

: I have tried using the Hulls program that is freely available, to model a
: kayak so that I could play with the dimensions, but I can't really get an
: accurrate model. Part of the problem is that I don't know how to enter the
: data by hand and the website that offers a Wizard for creating hulls
: either has a bug in its current version, it is more for larger boats and
: not really kayak design friendly, or I am inputting the wrong parameters.
: I was able to model the Wackie Lassie childrens canoe pretty well the
: first time out using the Wizard, but a kayak I have not had any success in
: modelling it. That is why I have requested assistance here.

I can't help you with that, but maybe someone else has some experience with it. Have you looked at the Bearboat design program?

PGJ

Messages In This Thread

Skin-on-Frame: Walrus Q's
Paul Probus -- 5/20/2003, 2:20 pm
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Walrus Q's
Bill Price -- 5/21/2003, 11:22 am
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Walrus Q's
Paul Probus -- 5/21/2003, 12:46 pm
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Walrus Q's
Paul G. Jacobson -- 5/21/2003, 1:30 am
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Walrus Q's
Paul Probus -- 5/21/2003, 9:17 am
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Walrus Q's
Paul G. Jacobson -- 5/22/2003, 12:25 am
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Walrus Q's
Paul Probus -- 5/22/2003, 11:46 am
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Walrus Q's
C. Fronzek -- 5/20/2003, 8:53 pm
Re: Skin-on-Frame: Walrus Q's
Paul Probus -- 5/21/2003, 8:44 am