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Re: S&G: Follow Directions OR follow forum experim
By:Gini
Date: 8/5/2003, 10:19 pm

Hi Scott,

Thought I'd at least throw my 2cents worth in on this one. For a first project, you may find it more reassuring to do everything by the book and not improvise, just so you don't get builder's paralysis, as I think Jim cautioned about. And it may make it worse as more of us that chime in on the options, upsides, downsides, and so on. Still, here goes.

I think #1 is very easy to do on a first project, and #2 is not much more complicated, but there are a few issues I'll comment on.

As for #1, not putting the glass tape on the exterior side of the seam: this is my third Pygmy, and I now wouldn't do it any other way. I have always presaturated the panels (actually, I now just presaturate the exterior side, which has the benefit of letting me always know which side I'm dealing with). And I have presaturated right away. So I have never had a darkened v. faded areas problem. Even so, I can always see the tape a bit on the exterior seam, at least a little, from some angles and in some lights (not all). Maybe it's because the two layers of glass reflect the light a bit differently than one. I don't know. There's no trick to skipping the exterior glass -- its just one less round of glassing you have to do, which actually is a nice time savings, since I find joining the panels to be sort of tedious. Beyond that, handle carefully. That's it.

As for #2, yeah, staining means a few more steps. On my double, I stained one panel, experimenting first with whether epoxy would adhere to that brand and so on. Ultimately, I was too tenative about a really dark stain, and as the rest of the wood darkened from the epoxy, and now several coats of varnish and a some sun, you can hardly tell the stain is there. It wasn't worth it. I knew I would have to stain aggressively and darkly to get the effect I wanted on this one, and I worried about getting the the epoxy to bond to it, filing off the stain rounding over the edges, and so on. Then I realized CPES might be an answer to the adherence issue. I've used the product on some other marine projects and checked out how it responds to stains. Basically, the answer (through emails with the vendor) is that most stains are fully compatible with it. CPES, in turn, is a very good base for fiberglass and epoxy. To the CPES sticks to the stain, the epoxy and glass stick to the CPES, and the bonding issue is a non-issue. So I reasoned, and so it turned out. And I loved CPES as a saturation coat -- tacky in about 45 minutes, and dry not much longer after that. I've waited in the past as long as 18 hours for saturation coats (using epoxy products like System Three and West's clear coats) to fully cure. CPES is fast and easy to apply (like putting on a thin oil rather than syrup-like epoxy). Anyway, I'm not trying to pitch a particular product, but this one proved to be the answer to my concerns about the bond between the stain and the epoxy. And because Nick was using Behlen's Solar Lux, I pursued info on that and learned that it is much more fade resistant than average stains. So I used that, followed by CPES (wear a vapor mask -- the fumes are overwhelming). Personally, I think it is an almost fail proof combination. CPES adds to the cost, but I thought it was worth it, because I wanted the two-toned kayak (hull and coaming dark; deck natural).

But here's the rub: staining will entail a few extra steps and challenges. The first was that I didn't like the look of standard wood flour mixed in with epoxy for the filing the seams on the darkened hull. So I tinted it a bit. First I used a bit of brown epoxy tint (made by System Three) with a little bit of graphite to cool it down. But it worked just about as well to use maple wood flour rather than pine (pine mixes in to be the color of dark honey; maple flour, although it looks almost like the pine when dry, wets out to be more like a color between mild and dark chocolate). I did the same thing for the thick bead of epoxy on the bow and stern stems. Once I found a tint I liked and could make uniform from one batch to the next, it wasn't an issue. But I did have to experiment for awhile.

The other extra challenge is in rounding over the seams. I had a few places where I filed/sanded into the stain and had the light color underneath show up. But it was not much of a problem, to my surprise. Part of that was that I worked very hard to get a nice, full bead of epoxy into the seams, so that I could round them without sanding into the hull. On the hard chine panels of the Tern, that worked okay because of the angles of the panels (which at some points almost come together as a flat plane). The few places I sanded through, I just touched up with some more stain on a Q-tip (just as Nick does in some of his pics). In some places, the Behlen's wouldn't color those spots well -- they were lighter, maybe because of a bit of epoxy in the pores or something. I happened to have some water-based stain on the shelf in Rosewood, which was just the right stuff. Very dark, very thin, very permeating. It worked like a charm on those little, hard-to-stain areas. The deck-to-hull seam was where I expected the biggest problem, and I didn't have so much as one spot of stain sand off when I rounded that seam. All in all, the touch up was pretty easy, and blended beautifully.

Well, that's more than I thought I would write. My bottom line advice would be: builder, know thyself. If you tend towards being methodical, patient, and focused, you'll do fine with both options, even on a first project. Really, it isn't a question of acquired experience or skill. Just focus and time. If you think taking on some steps beyond the manual will be stressful, or you are a bit ham-handed (as a friend of mine characterizes himself), or are impatient with detail work, then consider sticking with the conventional instructions. You'll love the finished kayak, without or without exterior tape on the seams, and with or without special staining. As others have said, and to paraphrase Nike: Just build it. And when you do, all these fine folks on this forum will be waiting in the wings to cheer you on and lend you their advice.

Messages In This Thread

S&G: Follow Directions OR follow forum experiments
Scott -- 8/5/2003, 1:00 pm
Re: S&G: Follow Directions OR follow forum experim
Scott -- 8/6/2003, 4:08 pm
Re: S&G: Follow Directions OR follow forum experim
Dan G -- 8/6/2003, 8:16 am
I second Dan's advice
Gini -- 8/6/2003, 8:36 pm
Re: S&G: Follow Directions OR follow forum experim
Gini -- 8/5/2003, 10:19 pm
Re: S&G: Follow Directions OR follow forum experim
Jay Doorly -- 8/5/2003, 6:15 pm
Re: S&G: Follow Directions OR follow forum experim
Don -- 8/5/2003, 5:27 pm
Re: S&G: Follow Directions OR follow forum experim
Matthew -- 8/5/2003, 4:26 pm
Re: S&G: Follow Directions OR follow forum experim *LINK*
John Schroeder -- 8/5/2003, 10:19 pm
Re: S&G: Follow Directions OR follow forum experim
Don -- 8/6/2003, 11:02 am
Re: S&G: Follow Directions OR follow forum experim
Jim Kozel -- 8/5/2003, 4:18 pm
Re: S&G: Directions / forum Exp. Correction
Jim Kozel -- 8/5/2003, 4:25 pm
Re: S&G: Follow Directions OR follow forum experim
Chip Sandresky -- 8/5/2003, 3:16 pm