Date: 10/15/2003, 11:22 am
oh hell, you really shouldn't have responded. I'm guessing you have a connection to CLC just as I did three and a half yrs ago when I rose to CLCs defense on this board on various threads.
Why testing is important,,the Yare and flat water is not a foundation for developing good designs, it was a foundation for enthusiasm in building kayaks. Nothing wrong with that, but folks paddling a Chinnook 15 yrs ago are way beyond the sophistication of a Yare. Chinnooks aren't around and neither is the Yare and although rec. kayaks are the bulk of "kayak" sales it's delusional to think it's possible for glossy ads and marketing hype to replace actual experience in sea kayaks to design sea kayaks.
The NBxl? it was in production for over a year and there was no demo model. The customers were building it but no one at CLC knew how it paddled because there wasn't one in the shop. Maybe someones cousin in the next county had one and said "it's great". But no one there had paddled one or built one for over a years production. Even with Derek Hutchinson giving a thumbs down (I was paddling with him,,where were you?) it took a year to do something. Something was not changing the design. Ironically I sold my Northbay around the same time that first demo NBxl was paddled so I was kind of Northbay obsessed,,"why does a bigger hull have the pivot point so far forward compared to the standard? why does the NBxl have good 'secondary' and the standard NB have none? why is the small cockpit keyhole shaped where a small cockpit eliminates the need for intruding thigh braces?, a keyhole is for a longer coaming?" It's the sort of mind chatter one goes through while enjoying the magic of being a boat amongst waves, rocks, seaweed,seals, otters and the ocean. Where if you aren't 'there' you could be an accident report. There's no ocean here so the focus goes to the boat. Hey,,success invites analysis and lack of a stimulating water surface makes for a LOT of analysis. Ok,,how did that happen? It wasn't tested,hell it wasn't even built or paddled. Kind of like that Patuxent 17 I made nearly 9yrs ago that became a submarine in waves because the STERN had more volume than the bow. Why? no idea, but given the names of the rivers around here one will find flat protected water so that seems a reasonable design for these conditions.
But the interesting thing about the NBxl was that it's severity of it's weathercocking was a consequence of greater v in the bow than the stern to a degree that was substantially different than the original Northbay,,oops, bow digs, stern slides, nearly impossible to controll in winds above 15mph.
I won't get into the Paxs other than to say I built the first one and was there when decisions were made to market it. If you were a strong paddler who could only build one kayak because of developing epoxy sensitivities and that Pax18 was the ONLY kayak you would build wouldn't it piss you off to know it's based on no experience in racing kayaks? None, zip, nada. Being a leader doesn't mean you can take advantage of a momentum of sales to justify goofy designs. Leaving in a forming bulkhead is goofy. Putting Beckson hatches into inacessible front bulkheads is goofy. You only get a few goofs before folks notice.
You don't get to stay being a leader by ignoring customers or employees,,sorry, that's life. Steerage issues crop up in a lot of CLC designs,,why? well they're primarily tested in the garage and not on the water. If you paddle with other people you deal with "steerage issues" so that you don't run into each other. It's embarassing to paddle with folks and not be able to go in a straight line.
Look at the sail rig,,a feathercraftII rudder is still recommended even though it's inadequate, that's a steerage issue.
Making a skeg kit available when customers comment on "moderate weathercocking" doesn't address why the Chesapeake is fairly unresponsive to compensating with paddler skill,what I'm describing is different than "tracks well". If you want to discern what I'm talking about go paddle a CD Scirocco or Necky Looksha Sport, both very different designs but both illustrate a very basic attribute of going straight while paddling level and turning with a lean. Then paddle the Chesapeake,,,or other "hard-chine" s&g designs. It's ok for an all around "sea kayak" to have moderate weathercocking but it's less tolerable if it can't be corrected easily with paddler skill. If no one at CLC in a decision making capacity has built a non clc kayak, paddled in coastal conditions or gone camping with their kayaks don't you think that could affect the ability to "lead" an industry? Or notice that a forming bulkhead left in 40" back from the bow could be just plain wrong. There, I said it, wrong, wrong, wrong.
Adding deck glass and hatch reinforcements to a 5yr old design like the Chesapeake doesn't address WHY the deck was designed to break during a rescue for the size of paddler the kayak was designed for, a 225lb-275lb paddler in the Ch17,18. Why? it wasn't tested adequately. I was there with CLCs staff on the Severn River 3 1/2yrs ago teaching basic rescues with those original designs when two aft decks broke, four hatches broke and the unglassed decks were cracking everywhere regular stresses were applied as one would experience in flat water rescue practice. What do you think CLC learned from that experience? hire less experienced paddlers as employees.
The Pax18 has a skeg as part of the kit,,it doesn't weathercock one bit, it's nearly straight keeled,,what's the skeg for? It's a nice design of skeg, it would make a good replacement for the one used on the CHesapeakes, but it's a waste of labor and materials,,putting a skeg on a hard to turn kayak that doesn't weathercock? YOu would have thought that would teach someone something about testing a design that is at the limits of ones experience and bringing the target customer into a testing process.
The Sassafras canoes? wouldn't you think having the experience of having a national canoe magazine send the Sass16 back and not include it in the Aug. '02 issue with other 'family canoes under $1200' because it wouldn't even make the grade would be an eye opener to the need for adequate pre-production testing? Like the Chesapeakes the Sass16 was a 3yr old design. And it had funky steerage like an innertube. Something I didn't know until I went paddling with a fellow on a freezing November day who knew canoes. The Sass14 canoe? Marketed as a tandem canoe for 100lb paddlers,,what?, such an animal doesn't exist anywhere, it actually was a nice handling solo canoe when made out of 6mm ply. So what did CLC do? The production version was changed to 4mm, so while the 6mm demo version was going around to shows the 4mm version was in the customers hands,,and the bottom panels flexed like a cheap plastic canoe with 200lbs in it, as well as the simple fact that the change to 4mm changed the shape of the hull enough to have funky tracking. So what did CLC learn from this? No idea but they don't advertise thes Sassafras in canoe magazines. The Sass14 in a solo configuration and 6mm is nice. Did you paddle the 4mm version? What was your experience at demos when two 150lb people tried to paddle the sass14?
So back to the WR18,,it really does have nice handling,,I have no idea how it does in wind/waves. Leaving in a forming bulkhead is goofy though.
Regarding your characterizing my credibility as waning I wonder what happened between now and 16months ago when my endorsement for the Sport Tandem showed up on the website without my permission or knowledge until I saw it on the website and flyers.."Local sea kayak instructor Lee Gardner says..." when I was known to be pain in the butt about sending out untested designs. Come on. The game is up. If you want me to be a booster of CLC you've run out of opportunities. How about when the West River 16 is made you take the local folks from CPA out to Assateague,,WITH other s&g designs and actually deal with the environment that the folks on this board understand.
Messages In This Thread
- S&G: Coho vs. WR18
Jay Nelson -- 10/7/2003, 12:18 pm- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
LeeG -- 10/9/2003, 11:15 am- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
LeeG -- 10/7/2003, 5:29 pm- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
LeeG -- 10/7/2003, 5:56 pm- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
LeeG -- 10/11/2003, 4:37 am- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
mike allen -- 10/11/2003, 6:01 am- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
LeeG -- 10/12/2003, 9:38 am- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
Isaiah -- 10/14/2003, 9:22 am- Get a hobby Isaiah
Chip Sandresky -- 10/16/2003, 12:49 pm- Re: Get a hobby Isaiah
Isaiah -- 10/17/2003, 12:41 pm- The king has no clothes
Brian Nystrom -- 10/20/2003, 1:32 pm- Re: beat that horse
LeeG -- 10/22/2003, 10:02 am
- Re: Get a hobby Isaiah
Annapolis -- 10/17/2003, 7:21 pm- Re: Get a hobby Isaiah
LeeG -- 10/19/2003, 12:06 pm- Re: Get a hobby Isaiah
Annapolis -- 10/20/2003, 1:59 pm- Re: Get a hobby Isaiah
Brian Nystrom -- 10/21/2003, 1:04 pm- Re: Get a hobby Isaiah
Annapolis -- 10/21/2003, 2:10 pm
- Re: Get a hobby Isaiah
- Re: Get a hobby Isaiah
- Re: Get a hobby Isaiah
- Re: OT, and dissappearing in a few days
LeeG -- 10/17/2003, 2:21 pm- Re: Get a hobby Isaiah
Dave Murray -- 10/17/2003, 1:44 pm - Re: beat that horse
- Re: Get a hobby Isaiah
brancher -- 10/16/2003, 5:47 pm - The king has no clothes
- Re: a leader in the..
LeeG -- 10/16/2003, 9:45 am- Re: a leader in the industry
LeeG -- 10/15/2003, 2:14 am- Re: a leader in the industry
Jay Nelson -- 10/15/2003, 12:52 pm- Re: a leader in the industry
LeeG -- 10/15/2003, 4:21 pm
- Re: a leader in the industry
LeeG -- 10/15/2003, 11:22 am- Re: a leader in the industry
Isaiah -- 10/15/2003, 12:51 pm- Re: and now we have fun
LeeG -- 10/15/2003, 5:29 pm- Re: a leader in the industry
Dave Murray -- 10/15/2003, 3:31 pm- Re: a leader in the industry
Annapolis -- 10/15/2003, 2:17 pm- Re: a leader in the industry
Jim Kozel -- 10/15/2003, 2:15 pm - Re: a leader in the industry
- Re: and now we have fun
- Re: a leader in the industry
- we're screwed!!
mike allen -- 10/14/2003, 7:15 pm- Re: linseed bread or pumpernikel?
LeeG -- 10/14/2003, 11:17 pm
- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
Ted Henry -- 10/14/2003, 6:23 pm- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
LeeG -- 10/14/2003, 6:12 pm- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
Dave Murray -- 10/14/2003, 10:37 am - Re: Get a hobby Isaiah
- Get a hobby Isaiah
- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
LeeG -- 10/11/2003, 11:56 am- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
mike allen -- 10/12/2003, 5:45 pm- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
LeeG -- 10/12/2003, 8:07 pm- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
mike allen -- 10/12/2003, 9:18 pm- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
LeeG -- 10/12/2003, 11:19 pm- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
mike allen -- 10/13/2003, 1:08 am- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
LeeG -- 10/13/2003, 8:13 am- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
mike allen -- 10/13/2003, 4:23 pm
- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18 *LINK* *Pic*
John in CT -- 10/7/2003, 5:11 pm- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
Steve C -- 10/7/2003, 3:24 pm- stolen boat - bugger
Pete Notman -- 10/8/2003, 4:54 am
- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18 *LINK* *Pic*
Steve Pituch -- 10/7/2003, 3:03 pm- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
Arko Bronaugh -- 10/7/2003, 1:51 pm- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
Jim Kozel -- 10/7/2003, 1:29 pm - Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18
- Re: S&G: Coho vs. WR18