Please forgive this long reply. Hope you will all take the time to read all of this and consider it.

I greatly appreciate the opportunity to express my ideas on this BB. For that I do thank you Nick. I love building as do all who come here. I write instructions for people so I can share that love and my deepest wishes are for them to succeed at this great and fun task. By writing here, by listening to your replies, I'm trying to make clear ideas that have approached through the fog, year by year.

: I guess what I don't follow is your whole premise suggests that sanding is a
: skill-free operation.

I never suggested sanding is a skill-free operation. But it is pretty obvious that putting a sanding disk on a pad is easier than learning to sharpen a plane iron from a book and finding out what "working with the grain" means.

: You say planes are bad because they take skill that new builders don't have
: yet.

I never said, planes are bad.

I said they are much more difficult to use to surface a stripper without destroying the fair curves the strips naturally create. Nowhere have I seen the idea that the strips are naturally fair and you should refer to the strip to guide you in how and where material is to be removed.

The set depth of cut a plane, the need to work with the grain and the limited ability to bridge the high points, means each cutting stroke should be carefully considered.

The fairing board follows and smooths the curves of a hull. The long length and flexible body bridges a large surface area. A ROS with a soft backing pad used properly can do a very good job of following the fair lines and bridging high spots. The plane has the smallest surface area and will not bridge across grain easily.

I've seen little guidance on how much should be removed and where, when using a plane. On the sharpest curves of the bildge, where the plane will be balanced on the high point of the strip joint, how many strokes are enough and how many will cut into the fair surface created by the strips?

The bottom line is it's all about the details and to deal with details you need more specific instruction.

This creates the implication that sanding is something everyone
: already knows how to do.

Not at all. To the contrary, I think few people know how to sand because it LOOKS so simple. I think a lot of people think they know how to sand though.

Sanding looks simple, seems pretty intuitive right? You take that power sander and press hard and if the spot doesn't disappear you roll the weight onto an edge and bang! it's gone. Yes, you have "erased" it, but you've made a dip. And if you think only of working on high spots or low spots or blemishes you will create an interesting landscape that is nowhere near the country of "fair" boats. In the beginning I did this too.

It's a lot like kayaking. Simple right? Obvious right? You can drop anyone in a ubiquitous Kiwi and they will learn to go forward and turn right and left in ten minutes. They won't know how to use their back muscles to keep from tiring quickly, they won't know how to do an efficient forward stroke, and they won't be ready to paddle on the sea.

If all you know is "eraser" sanding then you will make a mess. Trying to work over a large surface with 80 grit or finer will be tedious at best. You will hate sanding.

It's taken me years to clearly see and explain what I've known about sanding for a long time.

There are two distinct aspects to sanding. Leveling and Smoothing.

Leveling is the uniform reduction of a surface to the lowest level of defects to be removed.

In most woodworking, leveling is a non-issue, because rough sawn wood is jointed and thickness planed to produce a leveled surface which the woodworker uses as a starting point for their project. They can use a sander with 80 grit to remove the machine marks or, yes, a plane or cabinet scraper to smooth the flat surface.

Building a stripper is a different ball game. The faceted surface created by strips, requires leveling of the high joints, to transform the facets into a continuous fair surface.

Leveling through sanding must be done with a course grit that will take the whole surface down uniformly with the ROS riding on the high spots as it is moved back and forth or up and down with very little pressure.

The correct way to level a surface with a ROS is to apply pressure only to the whole sander, not an edge, or one side of the sanding disk. THIS is what is different, THIS is what few do.

The more you hold the ROS disk, flat on the strip surface, with light even pressure, and let it ride and follow the hull shape, it will follow the fair lines naturally created by the strips.

The fair strips will guide the sander to a create a fair surface. Once the center of each strip disappears, leveling is done.

Then the Smoothing phase of sanding takes over to remove the scratches made by the course grit. Liberal water application between grits will raise the grain and allow grit skips to 120 then 220.

Do you really believe sanding takes no skill or
: practice?

It definitely takes skill to sand well.

But you don't have to learn to sharpen a plane or understand grain and tear-out.

It does require focused attention on visually analyizing the changing progress of the surface.

: Ok, sanding is not brain surgery but it does take practice before you are
: good at it.

I agree it takes practice, but it takes more thought and understanding of exactly what is happening, than most people think.

Without some real care and attention and knowledge of what to
: look out for, you can do serious damage to a boat with 60 grit sandpaper
: and a random orbital sander. In other words, sanding is a skill that
: requires practice and experience.

Yes, but a ROS gives you many options for control that a plane does not.
You have grit size, disk speed, backing pad softness, and you can move in any direction. Oh, and you can work on the inside of the hull too.

Why do I want to learn to use a plane to surface a hull when I can do without it???

You do have to do a lot of sanding in the building of a stripper, period. Why not focus on learning the skills to do that??

If you understand that the center of each strip defines the fair surface and use that as your reference point, holding the disk of the ROS flatly against the surface will take down only the high points, and the 60 grit will uniformly remove material until the surface is fair with the center of each strip.

: It is obvious that your techniques produce good results. But your argument
: that your method is better because the other methods take skill that
: beginners don't have just doesn't make sense.

I say it's "easier" to learn because I can give you simple instructions with reference points and a clearly achievable goal.

Your technique requires
: skills that most beginners do not have, so by your own criteria, your
: techniques also come up lacking.

You twist a phrase well that sounds right, but is nonsense.

I was a teacher before I started strip building and I will continue to try to present a simple and clear method for my clients who I assume do not wish to become craftsmen but have fun building one boat. If in building that one boat, their lives are changed and they realize the skills they can master and go on to more and more complex projects, I say, welcome to the brother/sisterhood.

: It is one of the joys of building a boat that it requires skills. For many
: builders, it is precisely the opportunity to learn new skills that draws
: them to the project in the first place.

I agree. Building a boat is a huge project, bigger than most people realize when they take it on.

I've built a lot of boats. Non-essential tasks fall away fast.

I just want to give the novice a clear and simple idea of how to get the job done so they can focus on more creative aspects of the project.

For many of us, it is the
: continuing improvement of our skills that keeps each new building project
: interesting.

Of course, and the day I stop having problems to solve, new skills to learn, or figure out why I don't enjoy that part of the task, I will retire.

I'll probably die with a plane in my hand!

: True skill at any task only really comes by learning how to correct, overcome
: and eventually avoid mistakes.

If I use the pretzel logic you are using on me in this post, then lets sell plans without instructions and let them learn to correct, overcome and eventually avoid mistakes on their own, wouldn't that be the best way to learn?

There are always going to be enough mistakes to correct.

I think you understand the value of going to school, taking a class, or having clear written instructions to guide you.

Understanding the theory of what you are doing and what the goals are, must be stated, to give the person a clear idea of how to get from point A to point B.

I advocate using a plane primarily in the
: context of fixing mistakes made in previous steps.

I don't think that is clear.

I think most people believe, most, or all of the surface of a stripped hull, should be routinely planed as a step in fairing.

Perhaps I'm mistaken but I believe I've seen Michael Vermouth's people do this on their boats. They're stripping is so neat and free of glue I can't believe they can cut the surface with a plane.

I don't think enough people realize aligning the strip edges is their #1 priority, because the idea that the result will be nearly perfect has not been expressed.

I do hear the idea expressed, often, that you will not be able to align strip edges and you will have an irregular surface to deal with. This low expectation is met often.

I guess it would be
: better if it were possible to teach strip-building in a way that first
: time builders never made mistakes,

In big project like building a boat there will always be mistakes, even in the most highly skilled shops.

All I'm suggesting is to not create unnecessary hurtles for the novice.

My intention is not to attack people who use planes. If you enjoy using a plane on your stripper hull great. That is your choice.

We all love boat building. I think it can be easier

I'm giving voice to say it is a choice that novices should know I think is more difficult than sanding IF you will take the time to learn about sanding with a ROS.

You cannot understand without doing.

Lets save some energy for the more creative stuff.

Rob Macks
Laughing Loon Custom Canoes & Kayaks

I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.
Confucius