: Check out www.klepper.com and get a look at the grand daddy of
: folding kayaks. Klepper has been making these things from wood
: for about a century. There are a lot of 'em around which are 25
: to 50 years old, and that is the projected lifespan of current
: models. I've seen friends put together their Klepper in 15
: minutes. As her dad did, and his dad did :) And as for pack
: size--well, Klepper will happily display the compact pack size,
: just check around on their site. and yes, you can easily repack
: the boat to fit into those bags. It is not like Christmas
: presents which won't go back into the original box.

There are quite a few Klepper kayaks for sale on the UK forums, some of which go back to the 70's. If my project doesn't work out I may well end up owning one myself.

: I like aluminum, but this is a forum for wood boats, so I had to
: get a plug in for forest-grown materials.

That's no problem, I would love to own a traditionally made wooden canoe but they just aren't practical for me. I've just bought 4 HDPE chopping boards earlier today so my ribs (or at least most of them) will be made from varnished wood.

: Build carefully and with consideration. The modern materials you
: are using will give you a boat that has the potential of
: outlasting the venerable Klepper design. You really are building
: something that can last a long, long time. Get a good design
: before you commit to cutting, and you will be happy with your
: creation, and proud of your accomplishment. I promise.

Belive me, I will be happy if it survives the first outing. One of the benefits when building your own gear is that you know how to repair it. Other than capsizing & sinking, I don't see how I could catastrophically damage it beyond repair.

: Actually, that is Very good. About 1/3rd of what I paid for
: aluminum for a Yost folder. Apparently I've got to find a
: cheaper supplier than Texas Towers.

Well I've been told I will be getting it at the price the supplier has paid for it. I don't know how long that will last so I'll be stocking up :p

: You would also enjoy the book "The Survival of the Birch Bark
: Canoe", by John McPhee. www.johnmcphee.com/survival.htm

: He writes about a canoe builder named Henri Vaillancourt who builds
: these boats. Vaillancourt's web page is www.birchbarkcanoe.net,
: and the photo below is from the homepage.

: Looking at the picture below you can see how 5 thin thwarts are
: used to keep open an 18 foot canoe. Another picture at
: Vaillancourt's website shows a 14 foor abnaki style canoe where
: the rise of the bow is easily observed. This one also uses 5
: thwarts. If you compare it with the longer boat you'll see the
: center thwart defines the width of the boat, while the two
: shortest thwarts, near the ends, act more to pull in the
: gunwales and define the end profile, rather than press outward
: to resist water pressure. The intermediate thwarts are used as
: seats and backrests--and in my opinion could be structurally
: replaced with seats--and they also serve as structural support,
: tying the gunwales together, defining the lines of the boat.

Thank you, I'll try and get a copy and look forward to reading it. I discovered this video (http://nfb.ca/film/Cesars_Bark_Canoe/) a short while ago (I have no idea how, It has just taken me the best part of an hour to find it again :s) It has no cometary other than some short captions that pop up every few minutes. I'm sure you'll enjoy it as much as I did. "César Newashish, a 67-year-old Attikamek of the Manawan Reserve north of Montreal, uses only birchbark, cedar splints, spruce roots and gum to build a canoe solely from the materials that the forest provides."

: A propane torch will heat up your aluminum tubing to a point where
: it can be easily bent into very tight curves. Unlike steel,
: which nicely changes color as it gets warmer, and is soft enough
: to bend when it is orange or red, Aluminum has no color change
: to help you. And it gobbles up heat. So keep the flame moving
: over a wide area, and keep testing it as you heat the tubing.
: When it feels like it can be moved with slight pressure, move it
: quickly to your pipe bender, or bending jig. To get very
: accurate curves, you can make a template from plywood or
: particle board and bend your tubing around that. For one or two
: ribs this will hold up very well, although the wood might smoke
: a bit from the heat. But it shouldn't get hot enough to catch
: fire. Even so, a bucket of water is good to have around. If your
: design is symmetrical you'll need 2 identical ribs from each
: form. four forms give 7 ribs. Find a canoe plan and cut your
: forms small enough to allow for the thickness of the tubing and
: the chines over it.

: I have a puddle duck canoe, which at 14 1/2 feet is a little longer
: than your 4 m plan, but it does hold the weight you are
: considering. The plans for the building forms are in Gil
: Gilpatrick's book "Building a Strip Canoe". I just
: checked for this at Amazon.com and they show that he has a new
: edition coming out which will have full sized plans. The older
: edition I have has reduced-size plans which were just fine. If
: you can get the old edition at a close-out price, go for it. As
: I recall there were 7 building forms made from 4 plans, a center
: one and then two copies were made for each form moving from the
: center to the ends. These were spaced 18 inches apart. That
: would put them in just the right place to support lightweight
: chines. You might want to look at that design.

Thank you for the suggestions. I will take this on board when I try to incorporate the extra chines into the designs. I have also bee told I may want a layer of foam between the runners and the PVC skin to cushion any blow and help against abrasion. Have you found this to help or should I just add an extra layer of material to the area in contact with the keel and chines?

Thanks, again for your help. Ben
: PGJ

: Below, a birchbark canoe by Henri Vaillaincourt, from his website,
: www.birchbarkcanoe.net